Engagement vs. Motivation; Tier 1 Literacy Instruction with Jake Daggett

🎙️ Podcast Episode: Engagement vs. Motivation; Tier 1 Literacy Instruction with Jake Daggett

Adam Peterson [00:01:14]:

We are really, really, really excited to have Jake with us. He’s in native Ohio. He began teaching in Wisconsin and has just really dove into the literacy side of education in that K or actually pre K to third grade audience. And I met him several years ago at a conference at the Elevate conference and instantly knew this guy was somebody that we’re going to hear a lot about. He has done amazing things working with teachers, but I’m also kind of amazed, but he got to go on the the Kelly Clarkson show. So welcome, Jake. Let’s just talk about Kelly Clarkson for just a minute. How was that?

 

Jake Daggett [00:02:06]:

Oh, well, thank you. Hi to both of you. That was really lovely. I mean, it was four minutes, but it was a lovely four minute. I. It’s funny because it actually was like a hidden DM in TikTok, which I don’t usually open.

 

Adam Peterson [00:02:24]:

Yeah.

 

Jake Daggett [00:02:24]:

As we know, like, if you’re an influencer of any kind, the hidden DMS are not, you know, you don’t often have time to open or, like, even notice them. Right. You don’t notice them. And so it was this, like, producer that obviously scouts. Right. It’s not like herself has the time to like. So it was, I was just grateful that somehow she like found, you know, my email from the website or something because she was like, hey, you didn’t respond. And it’s like, who doesn’t respond to like a Kelly Clarkson inquiry? Right, right. You almost think like, oh, like surely they wouldn’t like DM on a tick tock especially because like Instagram is way more of what I’m known for. So I was like, this can’t really be. Like, this is just. So that’s how that started. But it was a really interesting process and I, I actually really appreciated even to be that last five minutes. And it was just on her screen like she had, she has that what I’m liking. So it’s a lot of times just something that’s gone viral, something that’s making the news. And so it was actually really cool to work with the producers and truly see how much time is put in segments of tv. Like you would think, oh, like we’re just gonna put you on the screen quick and she’ll just like ask you a question. But it was very much like rehearsed. Like we went through trial runs. I even like where I was gonna sit, sit in my house.

 

Adam Peterson [00:03:52]:

Really.

 

Jake Daggett [00:03:53]:

It was very much, it was a lovely experience from start to finish.

 

Adam Peterson [00:03:57]:

Right. When you watch her show, you, you get a sense of realness. But at the same time, I imagine they want to make sure who is this person we’re having on there, you know, and you know, behind them, are they going to have something odd and bizarre like two dogs laying on the floor? No, I’m kidding. But you know, they want to kind of vet you a little bit to make sure that one, you can put two words together and then, then three and then come up with a sentence. Some people, I’m just pointing at myself sometimes struggle with the words. So anyhow, that is super exciting. She does really lovely.

 

Deedee Wills [00:04:34]:

Did you get to talk to her other than the, the little segment?

 

Jake Daggett [00:04:38]:

It, it was just that segment. And what was nice is I feel like I had such a short amount of time that I knew I wanted to bring a little bit of the literacy awareness. But then also like a lot of people teach literacy. So like why, why did they, you know, she doesn’t know like why they. She just knows who’s booked for that day.

 

Adam Peterson [00:05:01]:

Right.

 

Jake Daggett [00:05:01]:

So I wanted to at least share a little bit about like the uniqueness. Right. I, I had and had this a lot, but obviously I’m not like what a lot of people Think of as like a pre K teacher or a first grade teacher, but, and especially, you know, I always joke, you go on Google Images and it’s always a lady with a skirt holding a book and.

 

Adam Peterson [00:05:24]:

Then like this frizzle pattern.

 

Jake Daggett [00:05:26]:

Right. I mean, I just feel like there’s crocheted sweater. Right. And maybe, maybe Adam, you too, even. Right. Like, I just like men in general. And then of course, like, I add the, the uniqueness to it. So I did want to mention it was nice to be able to weave like, both of those in the answer, because it does take more than just knowing about literacy. A lot of people can know about literacy, but getting the word out is a whole another ball game.

 

Adam Peterson [00:05:56]:

Right. And you know, like, like I said, I, I, I met you for that first time in Nashville and went to your session and I just sat there. Is it okay that I tell people that was the first time that you presented live in front of an audience?

 

Jake Daggett [00:06:12]:

Sure, yeah.

 

Adam Peterson [00:06:13]:

I mean, that was. And he, I, I don’t know how many people were in that room, but I know it held like 1200 people or something like that. And you couldn’t sneak another body into that room. They, it was packed. And so for me, I would have melted down seeing that. And yet.

 

Deedee Wills [00:06:29]:

No, no, no. You say that. And you are such a phenomenal presenter.

 

Jake Daggett [00:06:33]:

Right.

 

Adam Peterson [00:06:34]:

The first time I presented, I did not present in a room with that many people.

 

Deedee Wills [00:06:38]:

Okay, I see.

 

Adam Peterson [00:06:39]:

And you know, Adam, you and I both know what it feels like to present something for the first. You know, you’ve done sessions, but you’re doing something for the. Maybe you’re talking about something for the first time in front of, you know, human beings. And the nerves can kind of, kind of take over a little bit. You kind of, like, see yourself. It’s almost like what I imagine death is like. You see yourself floating outside of your body. But I’m watching you. Jake was one. You said the word joyous. I experienced watching you, but I was riveted. Like, riveted to what you said, but not just what you said, but in the way that you made it very memorable. And that is like, I walked out, I’m like, oh, this guy is like, next level. I just felt like you clearly have a, have the knowledge, right? Because like you said, everybody has a knowledge. But the way that you engage your audience is so memorable, unique, and just makes you ha. You’re so funny, and it just makes you happy to be there.

 

Deedee Wills [00:07:50]:

So is he really that funny, though? He’s very, he’s inside joke Inside joke.

 

Adam Peterson [00:07:58]:

Inside. He’s hilarious. Adam’s wearing a hat for a reason right now, but just hilarious. So.

 

Deedee Wills [00:08:05]:

Well, and I, I, I never saw you present, but I’ve heard the same thing from mutual friends. And I know we just met a couple weeks ago for the first time, but everyone that spoke to you was like, have you met my friend Jake? And, you know, you guys have to meet. And I felt like we were the only two people in that room that hadn’t met each other yet. But everyone said the same thing. Like you, you, you will like him because he’s real. You’ll like him because he’s real. Like, he’s not, he’s not trying to sell you on anything. He’s, he’s giving you real stuff, but in a way that teachers can relate. And that’s, that’s what I know. Dee Dee prides herself on I pride. Is that the best compliment as a presenter I feel like we’ve ever gotten is. It was real. I can take it back. I can put it into action tomorrow. And that was the one thing. And I don’t know, just because people know that I, I love that kind of work, but that’s what everybody told me about you was, was he’s real. And, and I, I find that when you’re an educator and especially like you, you know, you dropped the word influencer and Kelly Clarkson and things like that, especially when you have stuff coming in at that level, you know, people of that level of, of influence in the world, and you can still keep it real, that, that says something.

 

Adam Peterson [00:09:10]:

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jake Daggett [00:09:11]:

Well, thank you both. That’s sweet. I don’t even have to talk.

 

Deedee Wills [00:09:15]:

You just. I know we haven’t heard from you at all.

 

Adam Peterson [00:09:17]:

Brace yourself about.

 

Deedee Wills [00:09:18]:

But I do want to know more because, Deedee, you know a little bit of, of, of Jake’s story, and you mentioned Ohio to Wisconsin. I think you and I talked that you ended up there because of college. But tell us your, your journey from, you know, teaching day one to where you are now and in your role that you’re in.

 

Jake Daggett [00:09:37]:

Well, that’s what’s, that’s, what’s interesting is I, I mean, of course I’m very grateful to Elevate and Greg and Jason because that was. I met Didi, I met Carrie, I met Vera and Hillary and all, all the people that helped me, you know, because, sure, I had the personality, but I couldn’t even figure out how to embed a video. Right. I mean, there are, it’s kind of like teaching where it’s like, oh, I’ve got the content knowledge, but how do I do attendance? Like there are. Right. How do I get them to the rug? Because I know what I’m going to teach but I can’t get them to the rug. So there’s, there’s a lot of, there’s always so many moving parts. But I did college is actually a big part of, of why I am who I am. I did double major in theater, so that does come out in my teaching presentation. So I did the elementary certification and In Wisconsin it’s 1 through 8. So the pre K was kind of an extension. I did a charter school. So there’s always those ways to get your little kindergarten extension. But it’s been able to, it really taught me going from first grade and then to pre K to have 24 Spanish speaking 4 year olds. And it was not a bilingual school. It was very much Milwaukee, unfortunately is similar to Detroit, Cincinnati, very segregated and we’ve been unable to, to. We’re trying, but there’s a lot of parts that just feel very separated. And so I was on an area where, you know, the parents, of course they would like their children to be bilingual. Right. We were not a bilingual school. We were an English teacher, you know, assessing in English using, you know, typical English phonics. And so, um, I kind of learned Spanish but like directions in Spanish. So I only knew the command tense and there were, they were four. So I said okay, well we gotta do some claps, we gotta do some drum roll and we gotta figure out how we’re gonna get into a circle. And so all of that, it truly, it really just taught me about pacing.

 

Deedee Wills [00:11:49]:

And you were in, you were in first grade right outta, right outta college?

 

Jake Daggett [00:11:53]:

Yep, I was in first grade right outta college and then pre K and then kind of went the first, second, third grade realm. But what’s, I mean, I think what I’ll say that has led me here is, I mean depending on where you are, I tell parents we’re not really using grade levels to describe achievement anymore, unfortunately. And I don’t just blame the pandemic because obviously we know when we look at scores, 2019 wasn’t much better. But I, I mean, I’ll just be candid. I’m very honest about the school that I’m in. In Milwaukee, we just got our report back. We have the third worst in the country for the black white gap in achievement in students. And then we also are in the bottom. Like we’re 9% proficient in Milwaukee for fourth graders. So for literacy so I mean, I have third graders within the alphabetic principle due to attendance, due to inconsistent schooling. Right. Moving schools, we’ve got some working within digraphs. So I don’t necessarily. When people say, well, I’m a third grade teacher, I’m always like, so tell me more about that. Because I have third grade teachers who you would maybe call a kindergarten teacher.

 

Deedee Wills [00:13:18]:

Yeah, I know when I left the classroom in 2018, I was, I taught kindergarten my whole career. You know, I taught preschool before that. But I remember. And this was after the pandemic, but again, like you said, it just started sooner. And I think so much of it goes back to the distractions that kids are faced with. I mean, there’s so much in front of these little eyes now, you know, with screens and technology and the world around us has just changed since we were kids. But I remember the first time my wife teaches second grade and she told me, she’s like, what do you have for Alphabet recognition? And I was like, wait, what? And she’s like, I have second graders that can’t recognize letters yet. And it blew my mind because that was a mastery skill that we taught them as four and five year olds. And it’s, it’s just gotten worse.

 

Jake Daggett [00:13:59]:

Right. And even when I’ve gone to New York Schools, I’ve modeled 4th and 5th grade small groups teaching silent E, but that can also be families that are new to the country. And so that, so there’s really just a lot of. When I work with schools, I do love hearing a little bit. There is seems to be a more of awareness now of principles, knowing like, no, I’m going to invite my third, fourth and fifth team as well. Where it’s not so much like, oh, this is a K to 2 session.

 

Adam Peterson [00:14:31]:

Right.

 

Jake Daggett [00:14:32]:

I mean, sure, like some of the gimmicks might be the like, good job friends. Right. Sure, you maybe would change that for fifth. But in terms of the pacing, the that the quickness of I show you practice, those things don’t really stop after second grade. It’s the science of learning, really.

 

Deedee Wills [00:14:52]:

I think it says a lot about you and how you’re presenting it too though, that people are saying like, oh my gosh, our third grade teachers can benefit from this. And that’s what’s cool about conferences, is if it’s a wide range. I was just at the Illinois Reading Conference, which is a K12 conference. So it’s a little bit different than Schomburg, where we all were, right. Where it’s a primary crowd. But I was doing a primary writing session. And I had sixth grade teachers in there. And I’m like, you might want to find something else to go to. Like, no, our kids need this. They need some motivation when it comes to writing. I’m like, all right. And it was. It was one of the best audiences I’ve had. Like, they were super into it. So I’d love to hear that. You say principals are like, we want our third grade, fourth grade teachers. So let’s put you in that scenario. Let’s say I’m a principal or Dee Dee is a principal, and we want you to come to our school because we have teachers going, where do I start? And maybe there’s a new teacher watching this or listening to this this summer, getting ready to go to their first year of teaching. What are your suggestions for someone in a realm where these kids need all the support they can get? What is step one when it comes to literacy and phonics and all this?

 

Jake Daggett [00:15:57]:

Well, so what I did with my team this year, and again, this is my first year stepping into more of a director role. Pick. Pick one thing, because schools that have 17 goals, they’re not getting good at any of those 17 goals. And so I was very candid. I said, we will not be focusing on, on our writing curriculum. We will not be focusing on comprehension strategies. Right now we have, you know, we had a hundred percent of third grade that the highest person in our new progress monitoring was at CVC. So I said, so they’re going to turn 10, so we’re going to not. I said, so foundational skills will be this year’s strategic plan. So if you’re a teacher, you need to get with a coach and say, what is my strategic plan? So in K4, the strategic plan is three things. Uppercase, lowercase, first and last name. Yes. There’s so much more to learn in pre K. I’m admitting that. Right. But if you don’t give something that then every two weeks you can bring in, look at the ESGI data, look at the. Whatever you use, you know, Orton, Gillingham, whatever progress monitoring you use, look at, have we gone up? Who’s lagging? Is it attendance? Is it. Do they need a different group? There’s no other way to take every part of the reading rope in one year. So the thing that has made us most successful is to pick one thing. And in Pre K through 3, so they all have essentially three foundational goals for spelling and reading. So it’s a word level test and then it’s an encoding test. And we, we look every two weeks and then we use our ESGI data from. And so now this week we’re meeting to look at September, December and they just took it in March. And so now we’re analyzing who are those friends that are on that final push and who’s done really well. Right. What rooms have just shot up from that laser light focus. I don’t police them in terms of. There are a lot of people that, you know, they’ll look at some of my reels on like I’ve got decodables from foundations. I got decodables from Little Lions, literacy from you Fly. I’ve got express readers. I’ve got just right readers. I mean people send me things and I’m not someone who’s like, well but our scope and sequence is this. So you can only use. It’s not possible to get into every room and do that. So as long as they have something they’re following, sure. They can read this book too. Absolutely. And tomorrow they can read a decodable from a different. We were very lockstep as adults and so that would be my, you know, for teachers. That was my first advice. Where to start as a leader is we do have to pull back from our comfortability of the clipboard because research, they don’t master a phonics skill in the perfect order that we want a third grader that has been not instructed at all. They’re just going to start learning suffixes because that’s what’s in the tier one. And you’re not going to say, well don’t come to this, go over there. Like you’re not going to do that for that visual drill. They’re all going to come.

 

Deedee Wills [00:19:28]:

You’re supposed to be right here, right now. So that’s where you should be.

 

Jake Daggett [00:19:31]:

Yeah, right. So it’s like they may master ee before they master E by itself, but like that’s just the way school goes. They’re going to pick things up.

 

Adam Peterson [00:19:41]:

Right.

 

Jake Daggett [00:19:42]:

So to be very like, well that. No, that bin is second grade. Like that’s just what’s killing us.

 

Deedee Wills [00:19:49]:

Yeah, I love it that you’re just saying get books in their hands. Get books in their hands. But like regardless of what it is, and that all goes back to the testament. And I preach on this when I talk to administrators. Like, we have to remember that you can drop any number of big box quote unquote curriculums in front of your teachers every year. But we have to remember our standards are our curriculum. That’s your curriculum. Everything behind you and behind me and behind DeeDee and all those big boxes that get delivered as samples, those are resources to help you address your standards. Your standards are the curriculum you’re supposed to be teaching. And, and I think sometimes we get lost in this, this brand new product or this series says this, but if you look at them, they’re all teaching to the standards that our kids have to reach.

 

Jake Daggett [00:20:34]:

Right. And especially with foundational skills. I mean, you’re going to have to have a lot of things in your tool belt, but you also need to have somebody that’s going to let you do that. And so I think that can be complex because then of course, there are teachers that you need to support or maybe don’t have certain knowledge. So then it’s, then it’s the relationship of like, are you going to be able to go in and honestly talk to them and see what you can do? And then do you have people that want to come together and do that for kids? Because, you know, and that’s why I have a coach. I literally hired a leadership coach to come in and help me so I could show my staff I also need help and learning. Right.

 

Adam Peterson [00:21:24]:

You know, I, I’m listening to everything you’re saying and I’m sitting here nodding my head. Nobody can actually, if you’re listening to this, you can’t see me nodding my head, but I am nodding my head. You know, it’s, it’s one thing, you know, you were talking about students come in, in all different, in all different places and how teachers also come in in all different places. And each of those humans need perhaps a different level of support. You know, the, the student who just moved into your school in March who maybe hasn’t been in school or is new to the English language, they’re obviously going to need something different versus, you know, sometimes a first year teacher might need the same level of support as a teacher who just is brand new to that grade level. Maybe they’ve been teaching fifth grade, now they’re second grade. So it’s just, you know, being open with and flexible, I think is, is the key to either the curriculum that you provide to that human or the leadership that you provide to that human. And then the openness and being that person receiving that instruction has to also be in a safe place. Right.

 

Jake Daggett [00:22:33]:

And in the safe place is, honestly, if they get nothing else from this podcast, that is what we’re stuck in.

 

Adam Peterson [00:22:40]:

Yeah.

 

Jake Daggett [00:22:40]:

A lot of people are very ready for the defense.

 

Deedee Wills [00:22:46]:

Yes.

 

Adam Peterson [00:22:47]:

Yeah.

 

Jake Daggett [00:22:47]:

And it’s not even their fault. It’s the CEO has to defend to the superintendent. Right. The CEO also then has to explain to the director of curriculum. Right. The coaches have to report back to the director of curriculum. The coordinator has to report to the coach. And so a lot of us end up meeting about meeting.

 

Adam Peterson [00:23:13]:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Jake Daggett [00:23:14]:

So there’s just, there’s just a lot of like, well, but she started at 9:10 and the other room starting at 9. So if they’re doing in. We’re very stressed by that. But the thing is no parent is asking about that.

 

Deedee Wills [00:23:30]:

Right.

 

Jake Daggett [00:23:32]:

So we’ve really gotten into. We’re so ready to. Well, we do have, you know, and for RTI. Nope. That starts at 9:20. It’s almost like we’re very ready to say that. And then it’s like it’s not for the school board. I mean they’re Spirit Airlines pilots, honey. They don’t know. You know what I mean? And I’m not saying. I know it’s saying there are fabulous school board members that don’t advocate, but they’re not. I mean I don’t see her over here, honey. Unless. So it’s like we’re just very nervous about who we’re reporting to now in education. We have a lot of tears. And so it’s. I’m glad for my time in public school too because when I go to conferences and speak to teachers, like it isn’t as easy sometimes as like there will be those social media posts like do what’s right for kids. But there are a lot of. There are a lot of people that are told, you know, really for enforced to not or really pushed back on that are. Are having to feel defeated by that. And I’m not saying there’s a wave of a wand fix but. But I often do find it interesting that there’s criticism of the old school teachers. But a lot of times when you view a classroom of an old school teacher, what is it? It’s. I’m teaching you this. We don’t all have a stuffed animal in our hand. I’m teaching you this. You’re going to practice it now on your whiteboard. And then you’re excited because you got it. Like you got a chance to. You’re excited and then you can show a partner and then now we’ll take a brain break. Like that’s an old school teacher. Right. There really isn’t a big to do and they don’t. The old school teacher doesn’t go to the laminator and make 400. Not that that’s bad, but that’s exhausting and not everyone is able to do that, whether monetarily they have a family at home, they have to go home to their own kids. We don’t all have that ability to do that on a weekend or at a night. So that’s why, like, yes, certainly old school teachers might need like some additional training. But what’s awesome is like, we can also learn a lot from them in the science of learning field now. Like, they’re really just getting it done without that fear, without that. Yes.

 

Deedee Wills [00:25:56]:

The fluff. Right, right. And it’s, it’s, it all goes back to. And I, I’m going to tell you what, and I’m not just saying this because you’re our guest and you’re on here and I’m. This is recorded. So I know it’s out there. I, I can’t count. I mean, if I had a nickel for every school that I walked into that would say we need a coach that thinks the way Jake does. I would not be doing this right now. Like, there aren’t a lot of coaches out there that are, that are putting in the time and the effort like that. My. And I can think of 10 teachers off top my head right now that would say we need that. It’d be nice to have a coach that thought that way or a coach that was present, you know, So I hope you, you know how powerful the work you’re doing right now is. I mean, there are teachers that would give anything to have someone think with a thought process like yours. You know, I mean, I’m not saying there’s not great coaches out there. There are, there’s coaches in every school, but someone that wants to help like you do. Right there.

 

Adam Peterson [00:26:49]:

Well, can we pivot really quick? Because you, you talked about the old school teacher and you’re like, wait a.

 

Deedee Wills [00:26:55]:

Minute, wait, where are you going with that?

 

Adam Peterson [00:26:57]:

No, no, no, no, I, I’m kidding. 100% agree with everything that, you know, I’m like Team Jake anyhow. But you talked about the old school teacher and described direct instruction. Right. And so I would love for you to tell more about that tier one instruction. I know that’s something that is the groundwork. That’s where you, you know, we need to start, is make sure that we have really solid tier one instruction. So can you go ahead and talk about that just a little bit?

 

Jake Daggett [00:27:30]:

Absolutely. I, I think it, it’s a mindset shift because a lot of people think, right, okay, so I stand, I deliver something for the lesson. Right. And that’s not untrue. But direct instruction, explicit instruction, whatever you want to call it, that gets you. Gets you the meeting quicker with the higher up. It doesn’t mean that, like, I could literally teach M, s and A in pre K. And I’m now writing the sound I hear, and I’m deciding that I’m going to let them try that. Right? So really, it is like, okay, now I’ve done four letters. Okay. How can I make sure I’m retrieving all four sound symbols even though we’re four? Right. Sure. The M might be backwards, the S is going to be a struggle. But again, what am I trying to teach? Because it’s not going to be the handwriting, the formation, the sound, the upper, the lower. You got to choose. Okay, If I’m doing sound, sound, a symbol, right. We know we got to get them to the phoneme level. If I’m going to direct instruct, I’m going to make it an experience, right? I’m going to have a visual, have emotion, have, you know, how it feels in my mouth. But then it’s response. Yeah. A lot of people think direct instruction is the stand and teach part, but it’s just as much how much they’re giving it back to you. Turn to a partner, tell it. Can you say the sound like you’re a robot? Say the sound like you’re a tiger. That doesn’t mean you’re not fun, but it’s immediate. I’m gonna do this. Okay, Let me hear you. What was it? Oh, what was it? Oh. What was it? Okay. Oh. Grab your whiteboard, wiggle your marker up. Let’s write it together. Right? So that is still direct instruction, even though they’re experienced in responding. But then it is. What’s powerful is then you can decide how many times are they responding to me. There are phonics lessons that are lovely, wonderfully prepared, but the students end up reading one word, right? Or you see a direct instruction phonics, and each kid gets a turn to read a word. Well, what do I do when it’s not my turn? I’m chilling, right? Yeah.

 

Adam Peterson [00:29:49]:

I’m playing with my shoelaces. I’m doing baby shop on my neighbor.

 

Jake Daggett [00:29:52]:

So I think that’s. That’s why, like, if this was easy, we wouldn’t need to record a podcast on it. What’s difficult is, like, you don’t. I don’t believe you get to direct instruction without two things. First, the first one is environment. So if they’re excited to see you and you like them, you. You’ve achieved Step one.

 

Deedee Wills [00:30:14]:

Yeah.

 

Jake Daggett [00:30:15]:

Step two is planning. So, like, you need to know what is the purpose of this, right? Because you could talk someone’s handwriting. Now you’re stopping. Now I’m waiting. Right. Everyone else is waiting. Right? So those that you got to decide what’s the direct teaching point. Is this the sound? Because then it’s okay if it’s backwards. I’m just gonna make my note about that. But. But I’m doing the sound right now, right? It is the pathway of motion. Then I better have a little circle around, push up, right? And we’re all doing it. Oh, I didn’t hear you. Let’s do. And again. And good job. Wow. Amazing. So then. But then I got to see you do it too. So that’s my haphazard way. But I just. That rigor doesn’t exist. If they don’t want to be there, if you do not like them, and if you’re not planned right, so the environment and the planning comes, then you can directly instruct.

 

Adam Peterson [00:31:16]:

Love it.

 

Deedee Wills [00:31:18]:

I love that you. You kind of followed the rule. I talk a lot in my behavior sessions about the power of four, like, doing things. You give that model, and then it’s three repeats. You give that model, and it’s three chances, and you did that, that same thing. You know, I. What’s the sound? What is it? What is it? What is it? And you’re giving that power of four every time. And I think we forget sometimes that repetition is so powerful, the repetition of things. And that’s why, you know, we. We have kids, when they’re learning to write letters, we have them do it over and over and over again. It’s not just because quantity is better than quality. Right. It’s because the repetition is going to start to stick. And it goes back to that old phrase of Pratt, you know, practice makes permanent. The more you practice these things, the more they’re going to stick. So I think these tips are phenomenal.

 

Jake Daggett [00:32:00]:

And I even say you need to start on the first day, because a lot of people will get leaders that’ll say, okay, those first two weeks, build community, and then start your instruction.

 

Deedee Wills [00:32:13]:

But you can do both.

 

Jake Daggett [00:32:14]:

See it in pacing guides. Pacing guides will start mid September. And the problem is, then it’s like, okay, friends, we did the fun. Now we have to start. Well, you’ve already set the tone now that, like, math can’t be fun, but really, success is fun. Like, I. If I’m good at golfing, I enjoy golfing because I succeed at it. So are you a Good golfer.

 

Adam Peterson [00:32:40]:

I didn’t know that.

 

Deedee Wills [00:32:41]:

Are you a golfer?

 

Jake Daggett [00:32:42]:

Oh, I do not touch a sport. But I mean, I occasionally will ski, but I do not. Yes, but I love it that you.

 

Deedee Wills [00:32:51]:

Went to golf as the reference. I was like, there’s got to be a reason.

 

Jake Daggett [00:32:54]:

No, I just like a variant vowel. But no. So I. That’s where I just say, like, I used to start the U fly lesson or the foundations lesson, like on the first day. Because it’s like, oh, this is what we actually do at nine on the carpet. Sure, you’re learning where you’re sitting and how to sit crisscross. But like, I’m not like, let’s do something while we’re doing that. When we come to the carpet, friends, this is going to be our phonics time. We’re starting today. Hagerty so easy to get into, right? Get some phonemic away. Because that’s the thing, right? So people get very like, well, but they say that phonemic awareness has to be with letters now. So I need to not do. And it’s like, yes, but again, environment is first.

 

Adam Peterson [00:33:39]:

Right?

 

Jake Daggett [00:33:40]:

Hey. Is great for just. What do I do when a teacher tells me to make noise? Oh, what is it? What does a call and response mean? How does that sound? Like I’m saying backpack. What is that? What is. I’m just stare, you know? You know, Dee Dee. And they just stare.

 

Adam Peterson [00:33:59]:

What is that person doing?

 

Jake Daggett [00:34:00]:

Yeah, right. There’s more to the research. Has to jump off the page. You won’t get to the letter, symbol or the phoneme level if they don’t even know how to make noise in your room.

 

Adam Peterson [00:34:11]:

Right?

 

Jake Daggett [00:34:12]:

What does it mean to segment? How does that sound out loud? What do you want from me when you’re saying sound it out? Do you want me to do it in my head? Should I use a finger? Am I make. Am I loud? But you tell me to be quiet in the hallway. So should I make noise now? Yeah, that’s all environment. That’s where we get very stuck.

 

Deedee Wills [00:34:32]:

Yeah, well, I think we focus so much on that, that word mastery and we forget that exposure is key sometimes. I mean, some of these kids haven’t picked up a pencil before. They’ve come to your classroom before. And yet we want. We got. Well, we got to master this. No, we need to expose them to things we need. I learned this from dede a long time ago. I remember sitting in a writing session of hers years ago, and she said, just, just have them. Right? Just have them. I’m switching tracks to writing Here. But I share this with teachers all the time. Like if I’m doing a brainstorm of words that start with the letter I. Right. We’re drawing a poster and we’re drawing a picture. We’re coming up what we can. Everybody’s going to have a notebook in their hands or a whiteboard in their hands. And Jake’s might have every beautiful picture that I’ve drawn on my poster on there, while Adams might have the letter I. But that’s more than I would have done had I just had to sit there and raise my hand because I’m afraid to respond. Right. So that exposure and giving them the tools and giving them what they need is the active. Yes. Is the learning.

 

Adam Peterson [00:35:28]:

Right. It just can’t be sit and get, which I think, you know, has been, you know, oftentimes we, we think about, you know, I’m delivering instruction right now. So your job is to sit and watch instead of that. One of the things I love about your lessons that I watch, Jake, is that students are, are always active. It’s not, I mean, I don’t, I don’t believe I’ve heard you say more than three sentences before. A student doesn’t have a role in what they need to do. So it’s not like I’m going to sit here and zone out and think about something that’s not happening right now. Thinking about, you know, Pokemon or whatever. No, they know they have a role coming right up here. So I need to make sure I’m with you so that I can join in on the fun.

 

Jake Daggett [00:36:10]:

And that’s where I know we’re running out of time. But my final, I think my final thought of that is that allowing them to respond, whether it’s with a pencil, a marker or, you know, something. Because even in K5. Right. Well, we’ve learned the letters. Now all of a sudden I’m doing word families. Right. Oh, like it wants me to dictate the word to them. Like, you mean like they’re going to write it on a blank sheet? Eight or nine of them did. We just sometimes were so nervous, not to a fault because of all this pressure. We’re so nervous. Like, what that’s going to be hard or what do they need sound boxes for it? It’s like a lot of them wrote SAT when you said that because you’ve taught them to segment sound. And for the ones that wrote S, okay, this is information. Right. It’s not really about like a 9 out of 20 that they’re not a 5 year old. Doesn’t say, oh, I got a 9 out of 20. That’s for you to show to the parent. Wow. Okay. So they retrieved and recalled the first sound here, which is the. A great first start. Right. It’s not really about like, well, what grade did they get? A five year old doesn’t, doesn’t live on grade. We have to switch that mindset of like, thank goodness you didn’t say, you go off to Lexia and I’ll do it with the CBC group. Because you wouldn’t have known like, what if she put st. Okay, first and last sound you heard. Great. So we just got to work on the middle vowel. Like, we just don’t. We would never know if they don’t try to do what everyone else is doing.

 

Adam Peterson [00:37:53]:

And everything that they’re doing is telling you what your next steps are. Everything that they’re doing. So I think oftentimes teachers think about assessment as this moment in time that happens where. Come on over to my table, I’m going to show you some things and you’re going to tell me what they are. You can assess all year, every day, all day, every minute of the day. Because you can, you can observe that. Active, active participation.

 

Deedee Wills [00:38:19]:

I think my favorite thing you’ve said in this entire, this entire show, and it’s still ringing in my ears, is success is fun. That’s my, my favorite thing you said is this whole episode. Success is fun. Yes, everything is fun. But, but we feel really good when we are successful. That, that was, that was good bumper sticker. I like that. Do they make those?

 

Jake Daggett [00:38:35]:

That’s why it’s like you do hear like, I’ve even had a coach tell me like, but it’s just so boring. So I’m gonna like let. I’m gonna have the teachers use letter tiles to build the word instead. It’s like, but that’s not dictation. Like they get to choose the tiles you already picked for them. Right. So sometimes it’s like dictation is like, I have to remember the sounds I’ve taught and retrieve. That’s different than, oh, you gave me the EE already, I’m just gonna grab the ee. Right. It’s like decisions we make for our comfort. They don’t think it’s boring. If that’s just what your routine is like. They really, they don’t come in as a five year old and say, I’m gonna be bored today.

 

Adam Peterson [00:39:16]:

Right.

 

Jake Daggett [00:39:17]:

They tell you about their new hair clip. Like they don’t, you know.

 

Adam Peterson [00:39:21]:

Yeah, that’s not where the Mind is. And I also love that you. I know you got to go because you’ve got a job you got to get to later, but I love that you. You. You talked about the teacher preparing those tiles ahead of time. That’s again, like precious, precious time that a lot of teachers may not have. How much easier it is a whiteboard or a pencil. Much easier. Then let me prep all of these lessons ahead of time.

 

Jake Daggett [00:39:48]:

Right, right. I mean, that can be a center later, like at your table if there’s a focus. Right. But at some point, we just got to have them all try it so you have something to look at. Right. You have something to look at over a period of time. Like, here was week one, here’s week eight, and here’s week 16. Wow.

 

Adam Peterson [00:40:06]:

Yeah.

 

Deedee Wills [00:40:07]:

Awesome. Well, we’ll. We’ll let you go back to work. I know that. Sorry, you gotta work.

 

Jake Daggett [00:40:12]:

No, that’s fine.

 

Adam Peterson [00:40:13]:

We know you have a golf game to get to, so we don’t.

 

Deedee Wills [00:40:15]:

Yeah, we’ve got golf games. I suck at golf.

 

Adam Peterson [00:40:18]:

That’s exactly what a golf swing looks like, by the way.

 

Deedee Wills [00:40:21]:

Yes, I, I can. I got a mean putt putt game. But golf I’m not so not so good at. Jake, for anyone that’s new to our show or new to you, where. Where’s the best place to find all this awesomeness that you’re sharing out with the world?

 

Jake Daggett [00:40:34]:

Sure. I. I try to keep all my upcoming events on engage with Jake.com, so it’s pretty easy to remember engage with Jake.com and the rest is just my first and last name. I’m pretty easy. So Jake Underscore Daggett is where? TikTok Instagram. You can do LinkedIn if you’d like. But I’ll be there.

 

Adam Peterson [00:40:53]:

You’ll be there. You’ll be everywhere. Well, anyhow, we’ll add. We’ll add links so that people can find you. And I just want to say thank you so much for taking your time out of your very busy, important job to come and chat with us.

 

Jake Daggett [00:41:05]:

Yeah.

 

Deedee Wills [00:41:05]:

If you’re listening, he’s in his classroom.

 

Jake Daggett [00:41:07]:

Right.

 

Deedee Wills [00:41:07]:

Or his office school right now. He’s not just. He’s. He’s in the school right now taking time. So thank you so much. It means a lot.

 

Jake Daggett [00:41:13]:

All right, thank you, guys. Thank you.

 

Deedee Wills [00:41:16]:

All right, see ya.